After reading through the whole, long blog on homosexuality, you’ve come back for more? Wow, do you have some time on your hands! Well, I don’t think this one will be quite as long as again, I did not spend as much time conversing about this topic as I did the last. However, I must say there were some interesting moments.
To understand my points on the topic of hell and the beliefs I encountered on my trip, you have to understand that I believe the Bible is the word of God. I believe it is a gift from God because He wants to be know as much as us little mortals can and have an intimate relationship with us. More on this later in another blog from the week.
But knowing this will give a foundation to understand the following….
Hell is real. There’s no other way to see it if you believe in the Bible. For instance let me share with you the following….
During a section of the Sermon on the Mount Jesus gave in Matthew 5, Jesus refers to being in danger of the “fire of hell” and then the danger of the “body to be thrown into hell” twice.
Jesus gives a warning concerning Satan when he talk of the “One (capital letter) who can destroy both soul and body in hell” in Matthew 10: 28
He talks of hypocritical religious leaders of being a “son of hell” in Matthew 23:15
Again, challenging them, Jesus asks how they will “escape being condemned to hell” in Matthew 23:33
In Luke 12:5, He says to “Fear him” who has the “power to throw you into hell.”
And even Peter talks of fallen angels who were sent to hell in 2 Peter 2:4
I see absolutely no way of denying the existence of hell, a place of separation from God for those who reject His gift of mercy without denying the Scripture.
Now, here’s the reason I point this out. I am not saying everyone in Emergent does not believe in hell. Again, there is no set theology for this group. However, I do acknowledge that one facilitator of a handful of conversations that was highly celebrated during the week, Russell Rathbun, denied the existence of hell and many were more than willing to jump on that bandwagon.
Let me start by saying this, Russell Rathburn is many things…
– A pastor at House of Mercy in St. Paul, Minnesota
– Author of the book, Post-Rapture Radio (which many there raved about often including representatives from a couple different publishers)
– To be quite honest, he is one heck of a guy! I was really drawn to him. He is humble, caring, and very kind. He was accessable and kind enough to spend a half an hour one on one with me.
By the time we sat one on one, it was the end of the week. Earlier in the day, I approached him about his lack of belief in hell and asked him why he did not believe in hell. As much as I was drawn to him during the week, I have to admit I was saddened, put off, and somewhat offended at the response. He simply hung his head, gently shook it back in forth, and said something to the effect of “Yes, many like to scare people to Christ.” and headed off.
Think of the implication in that statement! I am a pastor who believes in hell. Never have I used hell to “scare” people into accepting Christ. Yes, I have seen that guy who stands at a public event and screams at random people how God hates them and they’re going to hell but I am not that guy. A matter fact, I am the guy who as lovingly as possible stands against that hate being spewed.
While the response seems gentle, it really is quite offensive, almost prejudice, and then to just walk off without any invite for follow up AND no real answer to the original question, I have to admit, I was rather thrown. If he (and some of the others of the same mindset) were at the Sermon of the Mount, would they be off in a corner, shaking their head at Jesus, going “How sad he has to sink to that manipulative technique of an imaginary boogy man and scary place to scare them into following Him?”
When we got together later in the day, to be honest, I had my fill of debate for one week. Maybe I was wrong to take that approach but I didn’t bring up the hell topic again with Russell which seemed to surprise him. We talked about our personal lives and got to know one another more. Maybe I missed an opportunity, maybe not. That is mine to carry. Again, I was very drawn to Russell, think he’s a wonderful man, but I do not understand this view.
A matter of fact I find the lack of belief it to be downright wrong, contrary to Scripture, and dangerous.
Another interesting thing happened concerning this very topic while visiting. I decided to stay over an extra day after the conference to go to Sunday service at Solomon’s Porch. Their service at that time was, I believe at 5:00pm. Now, maybe that is another post for another day but let me share one story concerning hell.
Towards the end of the service, there was a time that where someone would share their story to the 200 or so there in the mammoth living room. This will be the same thing as sharing their testimony per say. On this evening, a young woman around the age of 20 or so came forward to share. She also brought her best friend to the stools so they could co-share the story of their relationship.
The first girl was a Christian and a attender of Solomon’s Porch. It was her friend’s first visit to the church as she was Jewish. Their conversation focused on their friendship and how they navigated through the differences of their religious beliefs. It was quite interesting.
Towards the end is when it took an interesting turn. The Christian girl said that the biggest challenge they had run across was that she knew the Bible taught there is a literal hell. I sat up straight I was thrilled to have someone say this at the end of my visit who was a member of the host church pastored by one of the main voices of Emergent.
She said the problem with this was that it made her very concerned for her friend. That it really bothered her that her friend would go to hell since she did not accept Jesus as her Lord and the Son of God. That makes sense. And then she said…..and I’m not joking….. “So for the sake of our friendship I decided to pretend there is no such thing as hell”!
What! You know the Bible teaches there is a hell, you don’t want to think about your friend there, so it becomes more important to deny the Truth of the Scripture than bother your friend by loving her enough to reach out to her? You can reach out to someone you love and respect them too!
It’s like saying, I know that the bus is heading right at my friend and since she doesn’t see it, I know she won’t move. However, she hates it when I yell her name too loud so I will pretend the bus is not really there. Not much of a comfort once the bus nails her at 55 mph.
By her own belief, what do you say one day when her friend is separated from God in hell and all you got is “Wow, I guess I can’t pretend it’s not real anymore.”
I looked right at Doug Pagitt, the pastor of the church and a lead voice of Emergent who was sitting across the room at the time. How would he handle this? How would I handle it? Obviously as the pastor of a church, I would have to find a way to lovingly correct this type of teaching from the stage of my church. Some gentle way to “I wouldn’t suggest that ignoring hell is the best of course of action but there is truth to respecting one another, loving one another but yet still reach out to others with the gospel message of Jesus Christ.”
Nope, a smile. That’s it. It was a nice smile like one who was watching their young child dancing ballet. It doesn’t matter if they mess up or not, you’re just basking in the moment with full love of the act. I appreciate that kind of love for the folks in your church but the boo boo this girl was making has eternal consequence. If others feel this is acceptable Christian theology and live as such, others will do the same to lead others to eternal consequence. I just don’t get it at all.
So that’s it. There wasn’t hours and hours of talk on this one, just shocked and concerned at the ripple effects of this kind of thinking. I pray no one is scared into accepting Jesus as the Son of God. Instead to accept Him as the one who died and rose again to be able to offer mercy to us as sinners. To acknowledge Him as such with you mouth and believe in your heart thus you are saved. True, this is how you enter into a future in the presence of the Lord in Heaven but it so much more than that. It is a personal relationship that should be passionate, intimate, and life changing. Of course, God nor I wish for any to enter into hell either but it is not the only focus. Nor is it something you can ignore just because it doesn’t suite you.
That’s my thoughts, more some other day. Blessings!
thanks for your thoughts. I don’t know for sure what i think about hell. But i do not think it is a simple matter of ‘taking the bible literally’ or not. I think the bible is actually quite vague on the topic.
I posted on this more indepth here:
http://taddelay.wordpress.com/2007/11/12/today-is-all-hell-all-the-time/
but a few quick points:
-are you aware that the word ‘hell’ isn’t in the scriptures? In our translations, it occurs anywhere from 0 to 25 times depending on how literal or lax the translation is (more literal=fewer times), as neither hades, nor gehenna, nor tarturas, and certainly not sheol look anything like the ‘traditional’ christian hell. Wherever you see ‘hell’, you see a mistranslation at least.
-‘hell’ is not a part of ancient jewish theology, and doesn’t enter judaism as a semi-coherent concept until after the zoroastrian influence from the babylonian captivity
-most early fathers gave more reason to believe they were anihilationists or universalists. very few before augustine believed in ‘hell’
Hey there,
Thanks for chiming in even though, of course, I disagree with some of your statments.
I get very leary of a few things here…for instance, “hell” isn’t in the Scriptures. Other words like hades, sheol, the grave and the like. I have heard others try to build an argument on this but it falls apart when you put them in context of the Scripture as whole. While the word could be taken as one of those, when you look at the sentence as a whole, some of the arguments make no sense.
“But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca, ‘ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.” Matthew 5: 22
What is hell then? The grave? Is there going to be fire in your grave?
It falls apart pretty quick.
Rather or not “hell” is a part of ancient Jewish theology doesn’t really make a sound argument for those who looking to see if Jesus taught about hell.
And I get very leary of any phrase that starts with “most early fathers”, “most Biblical theologians”, “most people believe” or anything of the sort. Without some sort of backing (and no slam intended), I have seen these words used often to make an argument seem to have more foundation.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, James and Peter all wrote concerning hell as a literal place with descriptive terms. All of these were first century Chrsitians. Not sure how anyone can make an argument that “very few” believed in hell before augustine with this knowledge in place.
The weird thing is, I’m not a big preaching hell kinda guy but that doesn’t change the truth of what is out there.
Maybe I misunderstood your point. Feel free to clearify…..
Hi taddelay,
a couple of additions to what Thomas said:
first off, your point about the early fathers not believing in Hell is simply wrong. Justin Martyr, one of the first great Christian apologists, wrote quite a bit about conscious punishment…as did many others (Clement, Tertullian, Polycarp, and many others). I don’t want to take up all of Tom’s blog with quotes, so I am just going to post a link that has a small sample of the early fathers’ take on Hell:
http://www.bible.ca/H-hell.htm
Some early fathers (Origen being the greatest example) did believe in universal salvation; but, of course, those individuals were deemed heretics by the majority of Christians well before the Nicene Creed was established (and a whole lot earlier than Augustine).
You are correct that eternal conscious punishment was not a cornerstone of the early Jewish faith; but, then again, neither was eternal salvation. Jesus definitely did represent a change in how we are to think of the this world and the next.
“Hell” is a translation of multiple words in the New Testament which all are placed into one context. The myriad of translators who have translated the terms in this fashion have done so because it is clear that the common use of the words in Jesus’ time reconcile with how they are presented in the scriptures.
I agree that certain folks have taken a bizarre sense of glee in trying to describe every diabolical aspect of Hell…and that most of those descriptions are simply extra-biblical; that said, it really takes an enormous amount of eisegesis to come away from the Gospel without and acknowledgment of consious punishment.
sorry i haven’t had time to respond yet guys. you raise great points. i’ll post when i get a chance
Whenever you get the time….the door is always open =)
Please do, taddelay….
I also want to apologize…I re-read my comments and they are really coming off as a bit snippy; I didn’t mean them to, but, I should have re-read them before I posted. I still agree with all of the points; but, hope you will forgive my brusqueness.
Best,
q
The thing about me and hell is this: I just don’t know. But I often end up playing ‘devil’s advocate’ (timely pun?) in discussions on it- I say this as a prelude just to reinforce that I’m not the wonderful emergent heretic that I may appear to be.
The thing about the early fathers is that you can find contradictory positions even within the same author’s writings. So of the guys on the page Quincy linked to have other quotes that may through a reader for a look on the author’s certainty of hell. It’s as if (we all gasp, haha) they flip flopped positions like we all do.
But back to the word “hell”- Gehenna (the most common word behind the transliterated hell), we know, didn’t mean ‘hell’ (a place of eternal fiery punishment) in the 1st century. It was the town dump, eternally burning, for the cursed on the south side of Jerusalem. It doesn’t mean what we mean by ‘hell’. However, by the time of Mohammed’s Quran, Gehenna does mean ‘hell.’ So, oddly, there is an interesting truth to interpreting gehenna as ‘hell’ that is more muslim than Christian.
As far as early conceptions of hell go, I found this page to be helpful. It doesn’t have as many quotes as quincy listed, but explanations and context provided are more indepth.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EarlyChristianView.html
I would insist that saying “Matthew, Mark, Luke, James and Peter all wrote concerning hell as a literal place”- eh… maybe it is literal, but saying it certainly must be literal requires an enormous amount of extrabiblical eisegesis. You may be correct in an exclusivist fiery view of hell, but you can’t tell this with certainty from scripture.
For instance, Quincy says:”it is clear that the common use of the words in Jesus’ time reconcile with how they are presented in the scriptures.”
From what I understand, we cannot say that gehenna, at the time, with any certainty correlated to ‘hell.’ (again, gehenna=hell in the Quran more than Bible. And maybe it’s a bit foolhardy to pursue this, but since some of those Fathers quoted in Quincy’s link do not acknowledge (at least in the quote quipped) the non-definitive correlation of Gehenna to eternal punishment, we must remember that they are speaking with different context that Jesus, and therefore could easily be misled (much as I feel, having grown up with an unquestioned exclusivist’s teaching).
Again, my view of what hell is… it’s all up in the air at this point. I don’t think understanding it is crucial to the Faith, or else God would have made it vague enough that their was great dispute (and there was) even among the early church Fathers. If they couldn’t figure it out, then maybe we should not be so quick to cast stones at our brothers who cannot either. I would certainly appreciate it if fewer stones were flung at me for my honest pursuit.
Hey taddelay,
Question: Do you feel stones were thrown at you here? I apologize if that is the case. It was not the attempted effect….
no, no… not you guys… just saying the more conservative christian community at large… i’ve enjoyed the challenge you guys have thrown out there so far. I wasn’t meaning to implicate you guys at all. sorry if i sounded that way
OK, I don’t think you were implying anything…I just wanted to make sure we didn’t come off too strong. I always enjoy being able to struggle through these things with people when they are willing to have a honest discussion about things. I also have enjoyed this talk but don’t want to take a chance of accidently disrespecting someone. Thanks for the clearification.
You are correct in that the origin of Gehenna is the south of Jerusalem, where the Canaanites burned human sacrifices. After the return of the Jews from the Captivity they made it a place of defilement, where the refuse of the city was thrown and burned.
BUT, the name was applied to the place of future punishment by the Jews. The word is used many times in the New Testament (Mt 23:33 5:29 10:28 18:09 Mr 9:43), and always denotes a place of future punishment.
The future case is really evident in the Greek…so, you have two options: 1) assume Jesus is talking about a future conscious punishment in the south of Jerusalem; 2) understand it as a metaphor for future conscious punishment…something that was clearly within the Jewish culture before the Quran was a gleam in Muhammed’s eye.
To see a little bit about the incorporation of Gehenna as a metaphor for Hell in Jewish literature, here is another site to take a look at:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G
In terms of the early fathers, I would appreciate some specific comments from Justin, Tertullian, etc.. saying that there is no conscious punishment. I have read the apologies of these folks for years (was the focus of my PhD work) and don’t know about these passages (aside from Origen and a few others who were ruled as heretics within their own time)…
Great conversation!
so i understand the site you listed comes from the jewish line of theology that acknowledges a literal fiery hell. But that doesn’t really address the fact that this was only one stream of a very factious judaism that was in place at the time of jesus and has since fermented into sharply contrasting factions. Some believed in hell (perhaps using ‘gehenna’ as metaphore for it) from shortly before the time of jesus, but others never have.
There is nothing in Jesus’ language to make it anywhere near certain he is endorsing a literal eternal conscious fiery understanding as corresponding to reality.
Church fathers… i was already aware that justin believed in a fiery hell. no argument there. But if you want quotes from the others against it, you can read the page i linked to and/or research it for yourself, because there is plenty of info out there showing a wide disbelief in hell. If you are interested, it is certainly easy to find
Wow, first of all I want to thank you all for a very thoughtful and well presented argument for the different issues concerning Hell. While I am by no means a bible scholar, I am a student and I have done some more in depth studies into both Heaven and Hell (In depth for a college student anyway).
I think some of the biggest confusion comes from the belief that Hades and Hell (or Gehenna) are the same thing. Revelation 20:14 places Hades outside of Hell, making them appear to be separate places. It seems to me that the Hades spoken of in the Greek New Testament is the Sheol or grave that was commonly referred to in the Old Testament. At the final judgment the dead in Hades will be cast into Hell. With Hades being empty and death having no purpose any longer, they too are both destroyed in Hell.
Regretfully many Bibles translate both Hades and Gehenna as Hell and so people read scriptures like Luke 16:19-31 about Hades and think its Hell. If Hell and Hades are actually different places, we could see a whole lot of parallels in Luke’s description of Hades and the Greek mythology surrounding , death, the underworld and the River Stix.
I may be way off base here, and I probably am. Thanks be to God that proper theology concerning Hell is not required to receive His grace.
Really there is only one who doesn’t believe in Hell…and that is Origen. Clement, and a few others, believe in ultimate reconciliation…but, they still believe that there is a place of torment, as well. Clement, the most influential of these thinkers, believed that there is a “hell;” but, that it is not eternal. Regardless, it is clear that most early fathers believed in a place of conscious punishment.
As per Judaism, I agree that there were different opinions on hell…but, the use of Gehenna as a metaphor for a place of torment was well understood in Jesus’ time…even if everyone did not concur with its accuracy.
Well, Q and T seem to be having a great conversation in my absence =) I’ll jump back in soon after a little rest from the trip home today.
Thanks for stopping in Michael. Hope to see more of you as discussions continue.
Blessings!
[…] (HT: Tom Hypes) […]
Felt compelled to do a small update. This morning, sue to a strand of circumstances, I felt compelled to email Russell Rathbun about this earlier event so long ago.
I got a very quick email from him full of grace, understanding, and communication. While we have a different belief on this topic, I continue to be amazed at his heart.
If only all concerns could be discussed through with such heart. I am not sure why I waited so long to reach out to Russell but glad I did this morning.