Well, I covered the two main issues I noticed the week I spent with Doug Pagitt, Solomon’s Porch, and Emergent. So now, onto a minor. Now this topic will have to do more with Doug Pagitt who is one of the leading voices of Emergent than Emergent as a whole.
I know several who care more about debating some of this stuff out will want to debate the history of preaching and it’s role in the church. Some may even be tempted to start a campaign about how too many churches worship the pastor over God and this needs called out. This is not what this blog is about. It is some observations that due to the above stated concerns, some may rebel to the far other opposite to where they also offer a negative output.
The observation that week was one of disappointment. Again, I had stayed an extra day to enjoy worship with Solomon’s Porch and was ready for the full experience. Now I have had groups stay at our church for a week and I know how hard it is to fit in the right amount of time to do study for the message of that week. In watching Doug that week, it was evident that he was staying hopping being a gracious host. I asked him if he was going to get time to get prepared for Sunday. He replied that it was all under control and no problem (my words not his…..it was a few years back).
On that Sunday evening, no message was offered. Doug told his church about all of us church leaders from around the country and asked us to stand up. He told everyone in the church to group around those standing and each of us were to share about our ministries at home so the church as a whole would have a better picture of what was going on with the church as a whole.
Now, besides my disappointment to not be ministered to or challenged, I have several other concerns as well.
First, was the church really getting anything out of it? The body was not getting a bigger picture of the whole body of Christ. The four guys around me heard about my church….the seven people over there heard about that church….but there was no real collective understanding. To be honest, it really just seemed like an easy out to not have to deliver a message that week.
The more concerning point was I had gotten to know the four guys around me a little before church and this is not the message they needed. One guys was a normal Solomon’s Porch attendee who just hung out on the side lines who could use more community. Another guy, had been to the church about three weeks in a row and wanted to know more about Jesus. He was as much a “seeker” as I had met. The other two were a little rough around the edges and it was their second visit to the church. The last time had been some time back. They were friends with Luke, who I mentioned before and that relationship drew them back. Luke passed by before church, recognized them, said a quick hello, and then back to work.
As we talked for the “message” part, I had one guy who was interested, one who was polite but really needed to know more about the loving gospel of Jesus Christ, and two who felt they made a mistake by coming and said they probably would not be back. We talked a little about our ministry but I quickly tailored the talk more to the needs of those there.
As I inquired a little bit more, it appeared that normally the sermons were done otherwise. Either, they would study a book of the Bible on Tuesday night as a small group for whoever wanted to come and then Doug would regurgitate the groups thoughts on Sunday. The concept is the community write the sermon and not just one man. This confused me some because there was mentioned a message series on science and what not that seemed to be a pet project of Doug Pagitt which would suggest he was taking the lead in areas he cared about.
After this week, I read Pagitt’s book “Preaching Re-imagined” offering yet another new way of thinking about something within the church. Here’s a thought that kinda wraps it all up….
”
I had to make up a phrase, “speaching,” to describe what I think has happened in the church. I think that in the church we tend to act as if in the church world things operate by a different set of rules than in the rest of the world and we have these little phrases for them to allow them to operate in a different way. For instance, we don’t have auditoriums, we have sanctuaries, and we don’t have stages we have platforms. In much the same way I think we’ve taken the speech making act and we call it preaching. So if someone said that “my pastor gave a really great speech today” people would feel funny about that and say “it’s not really a speech because it’s in a religious context and encouraged by God.” But it has every appearance of being a speech.
When you are in a religious context, and use all of the religious supporting powers, including the role of the pastor, the use of the Bible, a committed community of people who are going to meet together, and then you stand up and give a speech that was created in isolation, is meant to be offered to the most broad cross-section of people possible and delivered from your sole perspectiveve, it seems to me that you are giving a speech. In that context you control the pace, the conclusion, the presuppositions, you basically control all of it. I can’t seem to separate that type of preaching from making a speech other than the fact that the former has added power to it, or dastardly influence I guess, because it’s in the religious context, which makes it even more difficult for someone to contradict it or have a different opinion. So basically by speaching I mean a speech given in a religious context – that is why I spelled it the way I did, to try and show it as a special kind of speech, but a speech none the less.”
I guess I have a pretty strong disagreement with Doug on this. I don’t know of a time that I have listened to a sermon or have given a message where it was control, solicited a specific response, and manipulated people. Almost every Sunday, it amazes me how people come up after the service and each have a different response. Often people tell me have they were so challenged or comforted on such and such point and that point was not made during the service. It is so evident that the Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to speak to the heart of those involved in the way they need in that moment.
It is almost as if he forgets that part the Holy Spirit plays. We are just the tool, not the one in control. As pastors we study, we pray, we submit, and then let God lead as He ministers to the people.
Some in Emergent would probably say this is egotistical for one person to have to be in control and that is again evidence to me that they are not getting it. While God calls different people into different areas, this does not mean everyone is on ego trips. Those with this mentality would have been a real pain in the side for Moses as they marched across the desert (though they would have fit in with attitude of the day).
As Paul advised a young church leader he was mentoring….
“In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.”
Pastors have a calling in thier lives. If they understand the seriousness of this role, it will produce a certain amount of holy fear instead of a power trip. There will be a strong need for God to make it work instead of being king of the hill. There will be a confidence in God but not a cockiness.
Do some pastors mess this up and go ego on thier church. Yep! Do people sometimes worship their pastors instead of God. Sadly, yes…..
However, to take such a stance on preaching and leading seems to be over the top the other way. The sad part is, while some talk down about preaching because it’s speaching, they are more than thrilled to come “speaching” at your event for $1,000 a day. I don’t think it’s wrong to be compensated for your work but something seems off balanced there, doesn’t it. It’s like hinting that evangelicals are media whores while you just said you are working with a news team on a story about yourself and your movement. (See blog on Tony Jones below)
I’d say let’s stay consistent but more than that, let’s man up in our callings and preach to those God has entrusted us the Word of God. Just some thoughts.
Emerging Conservative 
Your criticisms seem a bit harsh, Tom.
Okay, so Doug’s idea for that Sunday didn’t work out very well. But you have to give people the freedom to try new things, even it that means they’ll fail.
Besides, for all you know there was someone (or even quite a few people) who heard exactly what they needed to hear that day. Maybe, just maybe, this seemingly-poorly-planned Sunday was the work of Holy Spirit after all.
I don’t Maudin, I see what you are saying but at the same time, think it falls a little short. For instance, yesturday at church was a different message set up for us. Tux (Pat) was kind enough to agree to talk about his Haiti trip….some of our kids agreed to talk about thier mission week with the youth group who visited us….and it would be easy to divide the room into halves and say, for today let’s divide into two groups and you will hear testimonies. Then when they come back together, say thanks for coming! While there are positive tid bits for this person or that, there’s a real good shot that as a whole, what happened?
To me, it’s kinda like the 5,000 coming to Jesus and Jesus says to the disciples “Stand Up. OK now everyone around them ask them about thier personal thoughts.” and then Jesus goes and sits under a tree and eats an apple to pass some time.
Yes, it could be Holy Spirit led but I didn’t really pick up on that. It seems if your focus is so communal, why not explore these things as a community? Yesturday, Pat spoke to all, the kids spoke to all, and I was able to tie together their hearts by taking us into the Scripture to see what Jesus showed when it came to compassion, taught when it came to compassion, and what we can learn from others who show compassion and be challanged. The way it was at Doug’s church that night, it just seemed to be a quick fix that left many on the outside.
Now, I could have read it wrong. It could have been a Holy Spirit thing and everyone has a different experience than my group did. If so, then excuse away my observations.
However, I do want to say, this experience is more of a context of the larger picture talked about here. Like I said, it is a minor point of the week. Also, I do acknowledge above that there are other ways he produces his messages and that this was a one week event. However, it was a experience that served as an introduction to a larger topic as I read his book, as I listen to Emergent’s downplay of preaching, and the like.
That all said, it may have some off harsh which is never my intent and I apologize if it came off as such.
That all aside, I am really having you around Maudin. I have missed you on the Rev site and love having you here. Hold me to the fire =)
Heh.
Obviously ‘preaching’ is the topic dujour. I just finished blogging about my own when I wandered over here to find this entry.
I think some of the downplay of preaching in the Emergent tradition comes from the change in our society to more interactive ways of enaging whatever topic it is we’re pursuing. We’re not passive receivers of information any more – you want info on Angelina’s twins? You go to the ‘puter and plug something into Google, you don’t wait for the media to bring it to you. In the same way, preaching becomes more interactive and is therefore not as ‘preacher-focused’.
Thing is, (personal opinion coming….) if you’re going to do that style of interaction well and really honor the Word, I think the preacher needs to do more than the usual amount of preparation and not less – and NOT so that the conversation that occurs around the reading of the Word can be manipulated around the preacher’s agenda, but so that what comes from the community honors the Word as well as the community itself. There’s such a fine line there. I think it is easier to walk that line with integrity if there’s mucho preparation.
But, that’s my opinion.
So, yeah. You have folks present who talk about their community and the mission work they are doing… but you’re prepared to have that intersect the Word in some capacity and in such a way that both those who speak and those who listen grow from it (and grow in understanding of God).
I highly agree with what you said here. Well stated….maybe you should have wrote the post for me =)
I spent many years directing camps and one of the main things I always looked for while preparing the schedule was giving time where the topic of the day was introduced by talking to the kids (ie. morning devotions), then giving a specific time for the kids to talk and conversations to be had (bible study groups or what not), and then pull it back together by talking with them to tie up the different discussion so the group was on the same page (vespers or campfire).
It gave the group the chance to dig into the Word, into discussion, and still be together as a community. I still look for these same oppurtunities in our church as well.
In this case, there was no set scope for the talks and no tie together at the end. The simple fact was, the pastor of this church knew some but not much about each of this individuals he had his church talk to. I could have introduced Buddist theology into his flock and as shepherd, he would have no clue until it grew over the next 6 months.
Again, the actual sermon in question is not the whole thought off the blog but there are some additional thoughts. Thanks presbygirl, I am quickly becoming a fan of your writings.
“I could have introduced Buddist theology into his flock and as shepherd, he would have no clue until it grew over the next 6 months.”
With all due respect, Tom, the people on the other side of the pulpit aren’t the mindless sheep you seem to think we are. 🙂
Dude, am I missing something? It seems I am urking you and that is not my attempt at all. It feels like here and on Rev you are taking my words darker than they are intended. I will send you a PM there and pray we can talk thing sout if I have offended you.
I’m sorry if I can across that way. I’m not being serious, I’m just having some fun with ya!
OK, thanks for the clarification. Sorry if I took it the wrong way.
I really enjoy our on-line friendship over the last year and a half. I also enjoy your sense of humor. It just seemed much more pointed on this and the money thread on the other site the last couple days. I’m sorry if I misunderstood.
I did take the above statement as harsh which again I thank you for the clarification. I probably took it as so because this is actually a common statement and belief I have heard on this topic within the Emergent community.
There is a view that pastors have huge egos thinking that they are smarter than the people in their church. That people in the church can’t read the Bible and understand it without the pastor’s commentary. Takes us back to Martin Luther days or more a Watchman/ Jehovah Witness mentality. The reason this belief is out there is because in some churches, this is true. Again, Emergent has some foundation on many of their frustrations within the extreme traditional church, my point is they have gone too far the other way to try to combat it and have their own problems by doing so.
In my case, there are many people in my church who are more well versed in certain areas of theology. We have great group discussions and Bible studies that I learn from and hope I spur others forward to.
At the same time, I have learned over the last couple years to become more confident that there is a calling on my life as an undershepherd for our church. I am under Christ as the overall Shepherd, serving as an undershepherd for those He has called me to within our church. This does not lead me to cockiness but a certain amount of holy fear that I need the Holy Spirit’s lead to accomplish what He has called me to and will hold me accountable to.
As an undershepherd, I am charged with loving, protecting, feeding and caring for the sheep within this church. I am painfully aware that I know several people who have walked away from faith because of one wrong move, one wrong sentence from the pastor. I do not see the pastor role as a role of stature but I have learned that others hold the person in that role in a very high regard and if I slip up and they are not willing to talk it through, then I can cause a very painful situation.
All that said, there have been times the enemy has slipped into our church and plants little thoughts that grow up into gossip, backstabbing, misunderstandings, false beliefs and the like. He is always looking for these chances to get his fingernails in there and get a stronghold. It’s part of human nature.
In the case of this one night, as I said, the people I was talking to were not strong in their faith at all. None of the ones I talked to were in the Bible at all on a personal level. It was a great opportunity for someone without the Truth to be used to get some claws into the church.
Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.”
Matthew 24:10-11 “At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.”
II Peter 2:1 “But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.”
If someone reading this has a pastor that you feel falls into that category of being an egomanic who is above the rest of the church. I hoep you pray about it, make sure it’s not something within your control that is tainting your image of him/her….if it’s not you and it is them…..then talk to them about in a humble and loving way…..still no change…….go to your church leadership and talk with them about it and see if they will help facilitate reconciliation……if the problem still does not come to loving solution…..find a church where there is an undershepherd who will tend to you well.
However, for those who hold this heart because you have to feel equal to or above the pastor. If have this belief that you pay them with your offering and so they work for you then let me suggest you have some issues to deal with yourself. Do a strong Bible study on the role of the pastor, get a spiritually mature Bible study partner who can mentor you, and then pray for the pastor and their family. They need you in support of their calling.
If the pastor is loving and in step with the Spirit then does it make any sense for a sheep to say about the undershephed, “Who does he think he is? We can find our own food! We can find our own fields! He’s a jerk!” You may just need him when a wolf is staring you down.
There’s a balance and we find it in the Spirit.
Okay, let me see if I can state my original point in a different way.
I think that you’re putting too heavy a burden on the pastor and too light a burden on the membership of the church. Yes, the pastor has many responsibilities to fulfill, as you listed above, but the members also have responsibilities. They must listen to what you teach, study it for themselves, and ask questions.
It disturbs me to hear you say things like “I am painfully aware that I know several people who have walked away from faith because of one wrong move, one wrong sentence from the pastor.” It disturbs me because you seem to be blaming the pastor. First of all, I doubt that anyone who would walk away from the faith because of one mistake was ever really in the faith to begin with. But beyond that, the person clearly wasn’t living up to their own responsibilities as a believer.
Stated another way, I don’t think that on the day of judgment that “My pastor said…” or “But my pastor didn’t explain that to me” will be valid excuses.
Oh, I fully agree with you on that.